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St. Louis Rams breakout players: Chris Long and fighting statistical traditionalism

Chris Long will break out in 2011, but unless you watch the game, you might not notice.

  Earlier today, Van wondered if DT Darell Scott was primed for a breakout season.  I'm looking for another kind of breakout.  The kind of breakout that is easy for the casual observer to digest.  The kind of breakout that is unassailable.  The kind that demands attention.  I'm talking about a breakout of statistics.

  There was a comment in that Scott piece that sums up the traditional approach to evaluating defensive line play by the numbers by everyone's favorite lightning rod.

And, I cannot get excited about the "QB pressures stat." You can pressuring heck outta a passer and he can still throw for a TD. Deacon Jones would refer to them as "missed sacks." I wonder if Long got credit for QB pressures when both the Bucs and Niner’s came back late and beat us last year?? Was Josh Freeman being pressured when he threw the winning TD pass with seconds left on the clock? Were the 49ers being pressured when they converted 3rd and 32 and 4th and 16 clutch completions?

  That was RamChop's comment in the Scott piece earlier today, and it's one that I suspect mirrors the assessments of numerous players across the league by a number of older fans who go by traditional statistics as not just a primary metric, but the only metric to evaluate play.  It's also the kind of mindset that won't exist for the average NFL fan in ten years.

  After the jump, Chris Long and the impotence of the sack statistic.

Star-divide

  With the advent of sabermetrics in baseball, sports fans have largely, albeit slowly, accepted the fact that traditional stats don't measure performance; they measure outputs.  And outputs are ridiculously short-sighted ways to evaluate play in team sports.

  Take the overly simplified sack.  There are four components to any sack.  First, the pass rusher has to avoid any interference en route to the QB.  Second, the rusher has to minimize the amount of time it takes to get front from the point of avoidance to the passer.  Third, he has to complete the sack itself.  But the most important one, and one that is entirely out of the control of the pass rusher, is that the QB has to not throw the ball.

  Despite the ridiculous complexity of the process and in spite of the overwhelming number of factors and players involved in the entire procedure of a sack, the traditional statistic measures that procedure in just three forms: no points, a half point, or a whole point.  Doesn't that seem a bit oversimplistic?

  If a defensive end beats an offensive tackle on two consecutive plays in the exact same manner, but the QB throws a short slant on the first and is sacked on the second, there is no quantified appropriation of the equality of his defeat of the tackle.  If Fred Robbins comes unblocked up the middle and is given a free sack that requires little to no skill, that is accrued the same value as a sack by a defensive end who displays outstanding ability in eluding a blocker, sprinting around the edge and getting to the quarterback before he throws.  Using even the most basic logic, we would discard the sack as an outdated, inefficient model for evaluating pass rushing ability.  And yet, because it is so simple, we cling to it as the key determination of defensive end supremacy.

  Take Julius Peppers.  Regarded by many as the best, most complete DE in the entire NFL, Peppers joined the Chicago Bears in 2010.  Since Chop mentioned Deacon Jones as a baseline for greatness (and that itself is hard to argue), let's take it from the man himself:

Yet last season Julius Peppers demonstrated he was fully capable of embodying Jones' notion of a complete defensive end during a career rebirth after signing with the Chicago Bears. Peppers was ranked as the game's best defensive end by USA TODAY Sports Weekly's panel of NFL writers and editors. Regarded primarily as a sack master during his first eight seasons with the Carolina Panthers, Peppers also was a force in shutting down opposing backfields in the Bears' 4-3 defensive alignment in 2010.

When Chicago raced to a 4-1 start in October, Pro Football Weekly splashed the powerful end on its cover and proclaimed him, "The Newest Monster of the Midway." Middle linebacker Brian Urlacher, Peppers' highly decorated teammate, called him the best defensive player in the NFL.

He even pleased at least one tough critic.

"Julius Peppers impresses me as much as anyone," Jones says. "He has it all."

  Peppers as the best DE?  Interesting, since he had less sacks last season than Chris Long.

  I don't think Long's skill set lends itself to gaudy sack totals in the modern NFL.  I doubt he'll accrue the kind of numbers needed to make the Pro Bowl (an absolutely ridiculous metric by any standard) annually.  It doesn't matter.

  Chris Long changes offensive capabilities.  He disrupts the pocket better than anyone on our team.  Football Outsiders' advanced statistics put Long in some impressive company, and watching the football it's easy to understand why.  He beats offensive tackles with aplomb.  What he's lacked to this point is complementary pieces along the line to take the focus away from him.

  Fred Robbins' impact in 2010 was, like Fred himself, huge.  He, and Long's development into a much better pass rusher in his third year, opened things up for James Hall.  Hall had only topped 6.5 sacks once in his career prior to last year; in 200 while still with Detroit, Hall finished with 11.5 sacks.  Every year since then, Hall finished with less than 7 sacks.  And yet last year, Hall led the team with 10.5 sacks.

  Did he suddenly go Benjamin Button on everyone and get younger by a couple of years?  Of course not.  With the focus largely on Chris Long, Hall's side of the line was afforded much less protection.

  Chris Long may not be a league leader in sacks.  He may not make the Pro Bowl.  But he will "break out" this year.  He will be an absolute force in 2011, and he will be a major silent spokesman for the death of traditional statistical analysis that baseball fans have embraced to a degree I pray football fans would.

  We may be more grateful for his contribution as a Ram, but decades from now, fans of football will thank him for showing football fans that there's more to dominant play than the sack statistic.  By clinging to those three forms of antiquated evaluation, we end up missing the whole point.

Poll
Is the sack a good statistic?
Of course - If you get the sack, you have succeeded. If you don't, you have failed. Do or do not - there is no try.
185 votes
No way - it's one aspect of play that doesn't accrurately assess everything that goes into the process of the sack
162 votes
Pastrami - hold the mayo.
75 votes

422 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 45 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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3k – I just posted a fanshot that everyone should see. Just an FYI.

"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon

by BruinHalo on Sep 7, 2011 1:38 PM CDT reply actions  

good look

I knew the story, but glad to see ESPN picked it up for a longer piece. I front paged it.

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

if long played on the left side,

he’d be blindsiding qbs and picking up more sacks. In the case of lefty qbs(vick), sacks and forced fumbles aplenty.

My two favorite teams, the St. Louis Rams and whoever's playing the winers.

by caliramsfan1 on Sep 7, 2011 1:44 PM CDT reply actions  

If Long plays without a helmet

he’ll get my attention.

Wolf. Wolfgang Wolf

by dbcouver on Sep 7, 2011 1:49 PM CDT reply actions  

The sack is a valuable statistic

But it isn’t the end all be all in evaluating a defensive end.

There are three general types of sacks

1) where the defensive player dominates, adapts and overcomes all resistance.

2) where the defensive scheme overwhelms the offenses ability to resist

3) where the offense makes a mistake i.e. a lineman missing a blocking assignment or a QB camping with the ball.

Only the first one is of much value when evaluating an individual players performance but man when you can do this consistently you are worth your weight in gold!

Also it should be noted that even if you can get to the QB it can be hollow if it comes at the expense of maintaining your other responsibilities you can in fact become a liability as teams drop a screen pass over you or hit a big rushing gain through your gap.

What I like about Long is he’s a 60 minute player. He applies constant pressure to the offense and rarely gets caught in a mistake. He’s the type of player that makes the other players around him better. Forcing the QB to abandon the play is as valuable as a tackle for no gain and when you are decreasing the time the QB has to execute his play consistently it has a cumulative effect and often leads to tighter coverage and more picks. Of course I believe you need to knock a QB around a little too. All pressure with no fear just isn’t as effective. I’d really like Long to become either a little more elusive or better at drawing the holding penalty but as far as the sacks go if he is contributing to others on the defense getting the sack I find this suitable.

by Sggladden on Sep 7, 2011 2:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Good observations

I’m not saying the sack is worthless. I just wanted to make the point that, as you noted, it isn’t the end all be all stat. Some perceive it that way. That notion is outdated and eventually won’t be accepted by football fans.

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Didn't mean to single you out

It’s just evertime I hear someone make this kind of argument it comes across like new stats are all that matter, which defeats the most important and significant insight of the sabermetric revolution – all stats must be closely examined in context to see what they actually do and don’t mean.
Apparently you get that (many do not). Sorry if I read to much into this post.

by fltfire on Sep 7, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

no, no problem

and a valid caveat

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

sabermetrics

I don’t disagree with your points necessarily, but people who make this argument either don’t realize how they come across or don’t bother to self-analyze as much as the analyze others. Is the sack statistic oversimplified? sure. Is it the end all be all of evaluating defensive line play? Of course not. That, nor any other arguments makes it meaningless or not usefull.
In the search for more information, saber-ish measurements greatly improve our undrstanding of individual players contributions, but then the proponents of these new stats act like “output” stats are meaningless and anyone who pays attention to them is some old crotchety person who belongs in the 50s. In reality, the saber stats often have similar blind spots in the information they provide as the old stats – just different ones. For instance, qb pressures could just mean the guy isn’t quite good enough to finish the play. You point to a sack given to an unblocked d-linemen as an example of how the sack can be overrated. You’re absolutely right. But what about the guy who gets a “pressure” because it took him a beat too long to get to the QB and in that time the QB found an open receiver? Wouldn’t that be a pretty meaningless “pressure”?
I think Long had a great year last year and I’m not really disagreeing with you about him. I just think most people find themselves in “stat camps” where they will only acknowledge certain types of information as meaningful. All stats (information) are meaningful. Outcome stats can often be misleading, but: YES! actual results can matter even if they are sometimes misleading. All stats, new and old, are useful, they just have to be viewed in the proper context and given appropriate weight, contextualization, and reservations.

by fltfire on Sep 7, 2011 2:52 PM CDT reply actions  

absolutely true

I’m not suggesting that in lieu of the sack we only use other stats when talking about defensive end play. Instead, we should use other quantifiable methods in addition to the sack. The realization that statistics are not complete analyses of players is one I wish more fans would have. We’re eye to eye on this.

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay

Where do these things come from? I talking sabermetrics? Is that a new and improved version of the Flux Capacitor, Mr. Fusion, or a new quantum theory. I’m blown away at how much I don’t know about Pro ball. Of course I only took it up a year ago, seems like there are as many career paths surrounding football as actually playing in the games.

by OakCityRam on Sep 7, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only people who don't know anything about football use sacks to judge a defensive end

Chris long is probably already on of the best defensive ends in football because he speeds a quarterbacks clock up. The fact that he had all those pressures means he had an impact on alot of passing plays whether it was forcing the qb out of the pocket or forcing him to check down which is what we want in spagnuolos defense. Once again any rams fan that doesn’t appreciate Chris long should kill themselves

by Hibachi40 on Sep 7, 2011 3:00 PM CDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

+1

And just to add to that how many teams do we play this year that has a QB whom throws better under pressure?

Just a man who loves football

by BurnoutJoeB. on Sep 7, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree

Anyone that says the hurry isn’t a good metric probably thinks that weather isn’t a factor in games too. You gotta these type of metrics in place to determine how effect your D-line is otherwise you handicap yourself at getting the right people for your team.

by Da Rams! on Sep 7, 2011 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

hehe, I don't know about the suicidal suggestion

but yes, he does things that the sack doesn’t recognize that other statistics don’t perfectly capture

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

this adds nothing useful to the discussion

You might want to put some effort into understanding the metrics in question before you make such bold, yet meaningless, statements.

by apack on Sep 7, 2011 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

so if he had, say, 12 sacks would you say he was good?

take any one of his 30 something pressures and say the quarterbacback holds on to the ball just a bit longer and chris gets there for the sack. If that happens just 4 times chris has 12.5 sacks. I bet then you would think he was one of the top de’s in the league. Do you even realize how hard it is to get a sack against professional quarterbacks who are trained to get the ball out as quickly as possible? Just be happy with the fact that he’s making the other teams oline and qb antsy if you cant realize how important a de like him is tothis defense.

by Hibachi40 on Sep 7, 2011 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not only does he have 12.5 sacks,

but I think he STILL would have led the league in QB hurries. He surely would have stayed in the top 3.

"I kind of stepped my swagger up. You look at the Madden game and the swagger's so low, maybe they'll bump me up. Before it was a meatball flex, so you've got to liven it up a little bit." - Animal Jr.

by douchiedude on Sep 7, 2011 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Certainly I realize the importance of a sack.

A single sack can kill a series, a drive, put a team out of FG range, make ‘em try a FG rather than get a TD or even lose the game. A “hurry” may mean absolutely nothing. And in Long’s case a wish he and the OLB had been able cut off a few more of those outside runs that gashed us for big yards last season. In the words of Shania Twain; 29 tackles by our 2nd best D player “Don’t impress me much.”

by RamChop on Sep 8, 2011 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

Well it’s cool guys. 3k just wrote an article about this very type of comment that only pays attention to the traditional tackle and sack and it just goes right over Ramchop’s head.

Not really anything new..

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by stlcardsfan4 on Sep 7, 2011 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the sack is a very good statistic.

But it’s not the only one. Sometimes they are due to luck, or sometimes inconsistent players get sacks but do nothing else. But more often than not, the better players will have more sacks. It’s kind of like passer rating. It’s not perfect, and it’s hard to really use it to say that one player is better than another, but generally the good QBs have a higher rating than the bad ones.

by StopSpe on Sep 7, 2011 3:09 PM CDT reply actions  

sure

but the factors that determine those consistent statistical collectors are what’s important. What is it the QBs due that leads to the higher rating? Those are the factors that require greater quantification. I know ESPN tried with their new QB stat, but it’s not accurate either (and not any better than what other people are doing already anyway).

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I personaly enjoy the Phantom Sack

Now if the opposing QB will take the ball and just sit down every play we go 16-0

by OakCityRam on Sep 7, 2011 3:32 PM CDT reply actions  

actually I think Long with make it easier for Quinn to adjust this year.

And if Quinn can develop as we hope, then we will have a terrifying defense for many years.

by apack on Sep 7, 2011 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

You just cant judge how good a player is by his sack total

Good linemen can get more sacks than the best in the league. and it isn’t an anomaly. It happens a lot. And the difference in sack totals from the top of the league to the middle of the road isn’t wide enough given the volume of plays for it to be a statistic capable of measuring a DE’s impact on the entire game.

 It is great to sack a QB 11 times in a season. thats a little over a half a sack a game. That means you can have no real sacks but still assist on a QB takedown once every game and still tally 11 at the end of the season.

The total number of plays ran by an NFL offense in a given game ranges between 60-70 plays on average. That means in approx. 1040 plays a season. So you think we have a pretty good idea of how much better a player is because they got to the quarterback once in every 100 plays as opposed to a guy that got to the QB every 109 plays?

I think its an incredibly overrated stat. Especially once you figure out that half the sack leaders in the NFL came from the best defensive schemes in the league. And after you factor in that almost every single DE that was on the sack leader board, also had their counterpart on the list very close to them. Meaning sacks are probably a matter of overpowering the offensive unit as a WHOLE with your defensive unit as a WHOLE. not just one player.

by Lexxi on Sep 7, 2011 4:08 PM CDT reply actions  

Sacks are great

I love sacks.

Wolf. Wolfgang Wolf

by dbcouver on Sep 7, 2011 4:12 PM CDT reply actions  

How about QBD stats

If pressure by a pass rusher causes an incomplete pass, tipped ball, sack, fumble or interception log it as a QBD. He may not have to hit the quarterback to accomplish a QBD. It’s a bit subjective but so are QB pressures. The bottom line – it has to effect the play in a negative way.

by 2cents on Sep 7, 2011 4:23 PM CDT reply actions  

And

bad QBs will yield more QBDs than good ones.

Remember the great 2004 and 2005 Rams teams...

by Marmie is the best on Sep 7, 2011 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

A QB pressure is nebuluos. It may mean an incompletion, an INT, a 1st down catch or a TD pass.

Roman Gabriel used to throw sometimes with a couple guys hanging on him. We didn’t give those dudes a whole lotta credit back in the late 60s-early 70’s for QB pressures.

by RamChop on Sep 7, 2011 4:45 PM CDT reply actions  

absolutely

Sacks, pressures, all of it has to be considered in context.

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is the key point

All of these measures are flawed, including tackles and sacks, so none of them individually gives you a complete idea of the player’s contribution. Certainly getting more sacks is better, and more pressures is also better all else being equal, but unless you evaluate the quality of the individual plays then you can’t say very much about the quality of the player.

by apack on Sep 7, 2011 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

How can

Long breakout when Football Outsiders ranked him the 2nd best DE against the pass last season? He already has broken out. He is one of the best defensive players in football. For what it’s worth, Ron Bartell was ranked as the 2nd best CB against the pass last year (8th when the numbers are adjusted.)

We have some very talented defensive players here.

Remember the great 2004 and 2005 Rams teams...

by Marmie is the best on Sep 7, 2011 7:05 PM CDT reply actions  

i meant in terms of the conventional awareness

Despite being the FO ranking, does he get the attention you’d expect the “2nd best DE against the pass” to get from national media? How many DEs get more attention than he does? I expect new media to pick up the slack where traditional media is failing here, because they’re willing to buck convention. That’s where the breakout comes. Not with stats, not necessarily with production, but with acknowledgement.

Turf Show Times editor, Mocking the Draft writer, and I gots that Twitter too, yo.
"my keyboard won't corporate, neighter will my smell check." - Knoxfan

by 3k on Sep 7, 2011 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely,

even our own fans don’t appreciate what Ron Bartell brings to the team. He’s just as capable as anyone as taking one half of the field out, though not to the sense of Asomugha or Revis. They’re on their own level anyway.

"I kind of stepped my swagger up. You look at the Madden game and the swagger's so low, maybe they'll bump me up. Before it was a meatball flex, so you've got to liven it up a little bit." - Animal Jr.

by douchiedude on Sep 7, 2011 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, if you ONLY get one sack in each game, it totals just 16 sacks. That’s a very good #, so in each of the 16 games I’ll take it with every QB hurries that man or any one else can get. The Jacksonville QB, who was released, was sacked only twice, (by different guys I mite add, but those QB hurries affected him big time.

by snob on Sep 7, 2011 9:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Great read 3K

You already know how I feel about Chris Long

Is that great man formally known as Tevin T. Broner, also I'm on twitter T_bron

by Tevin Broner on Sep 7, 2011 9:46 PM CDT reply actions  

Very good piece, 3k.

Couldn’t agree more. The only thing Long needs to work on is not missing tackles. That alone would have put him above 10 sacks, but he already changes the game like few defensive ends do. Honestly, I don’t care how bad Derek Anderson was last year, but we would have won that season opener if Sam had a game or two under his belt simply because Long abused the hell out of Anderson that night. Maybe fans don’t see Long as a great player, but offensive coordinators watching his film will point to him and tell his line to stop him at all costs.

"I kind of stepped my swagger up. You look at the Madden game and the swagger's so low, maybe they'll bump me up. Before it was a meatball flex, so you've got to liven it up a little bit." - Animal Jr.

by douchiedude on Sep 7, 2011 10:14 PM CDT reply actions  

Excellent piece

For me, a sack is a sack. One of the most beautiful sights in the NFL.

I value it highly, and as a statistic, I value it equally.

Of course, as you said, disregarding pressures is an archaic way of seeing things, and you’ve explained it very very well.

I think ultimately, pressures are just as important of sacks, but people don’t AIM for pressures, they want sacks. This means that sacks are still one of the ultimate defensive plays alongside INTs.

I believe Long will breakout with sacks as well as pressures, and will go to his first pro bowl as the Rams earn a playoff spot.

http://brotherspork.wordpress.com/

by Infemous on Sep 8, 2011 12:14 PM CDT reply actions  

I can't really say I love the sight of a sack

Nor do I really aim for the sack. That’s just cruel.

"I have something 95 percent of all those All-Stars only wish they had: a World Series ring. If I had to choose between that and being an All-Star, it would be no contest. I’d grab the gold ring and never look back." -Tim Salmon

by BruinHalo on Sep 8, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

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