Cost/benefit of the Rams possible #2 picks
I'm front-paging a comment that Taiko posted this morning because I think it lays out a nice cost-benefit analysis of the three most likely courses the Rams can take with their second overall pick. This is shaping up to be a really interesting draft year, especially for the Rams with the need for elite players at several positions that the team could build around. With that, I turn it over to Taiko...
There are basically three scenarios for the Rams:
1. Take Eugene Monroe (if the Lions take Jason Smith) — lowest risk, lowest reward in terms of putting points on the board, as we are still shy of a lot of skill talent. But you are hoping to return Bulger to form, keep him upright, and pound with the running game, eat up the clock and maybe move that 14 PPG to a league-average 17. There’s also speculation that Monroe is not a top-flight LT, a Walter Jones or Orlando Pace, but he should be solid out of the gate, and should help the Rams keep the other team off the field for a few more minutes per game. This might prevent an opposing FG drive per game. Long term: We still need to replace Bulger with next year’s top pick, and somehow build a quality defensive middle. WRs that fit Shurmur’s scheme can be gotten cheaply through free agency — the Eagles have never prioritized that #1 receiver, outside of the TO experiment. Estimated PPG difference: +6 (3 offensive, 3 defensive)
2. Take Aaron Curry — high risk, high reward in terms of keeping points off the board. Putting Curry in the middle would completely transform the LB crew from a weakness to a strength. We stop opposing runners from getting to and through the second level of our defense. Our biggest problem last season on defense was the inability to stop the run, and inability to force punts from third downs.
Look at this: even though the Rams gave up 8.28 yards per pass attempt (ridiculous!), 31st in the league, they only gave up 217 yards passing per game (19th). Teams could pass all day through the soft Rams middle, but they didn’t because it was even easier running through it: 158 rushing yards per game allowed (31st). And according to Football Outsiders, the Rams’ pass defense did well against 1st and 2nd receivers, but got killed by “other” WRs – slot receivers that have to be picked up by linebackers in coverage. Adding Curry would completely change this, as it slots Witherspoon to his natural position, where he can be freed to read and react, and help with pass rush from time to time. Points per game impact: I’d estimate that this one player takes 7 points off our defensive points allowed. Long term: The Rams still draft an effective tackle this season, replace Holt next season.
3. Take Crabtree — Huge risk, low reward. The Rams now have replaced Torry Holt with a mouthy, ego-driven wide receiver who is going to bark all year long about how he isn’t getting enough passes because (1) Bulger is always on his back, and (2) the Rams are always way behind, allowing defenses to not respect the run game and go after Bulger, leading back to (1). That said, Holt’s touchdowns fell from 10 in 2006 to 3 in 2008. Crabtree is definitely capable of catching or creating 10, even under adverse conditions. Points per game: Crabtree adds 49 points to the positive side, or roughly +3 per game. That’s his upside. However, he isn’t going to catch enough balls or be involved in enough plays to significantly impact the Rams’ time of possession. No defensive points awarded. Long term: The Rams still have a mushy core, with an unsettled O-line, D-line, and linebacking corps. Despite new playmaking talent, the Rams struggle to show that continuous improvement from drive to drive that the team deserately needs to prove they’re heading in the right direction under Spagnuolo.
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Replace Bulger?
Under Eugene Monroe:
Long term: We still need to replace Bulger with next year’s top pick, and somehow build a quality defensive middle.
Do you mean Holt?
Regardless, I’d go for Curry. But the Rams will probably take Eugene Monroe.
No, I meant Bulger
And I meant to follow it up later in the thread, but forgot. The Rams are in a terrible position with Bulger, where they’re shackled to his contract for this season. From Rotoworld:
7/27/2007: Signed a six-year, $65 million contract extension through 2013. The deal contains $27 million guaranteed, including a $12 million signing bonus and $3 million of Bulger’s 2009 base salary. 2009: $6.5 million, 2010: $8.5 million, 2011-2012: $9 million, 2013: $11.5 million, 2014: Free Agent.
Cap charges: $8.5 million (2009), $10.5 million (2010), $11 million (2011-2012), $13.5 million (2013).
In these big-money contracts, you should only pay attention to the guaranteed money, which is $27 milion, and the cap charges. The Rams will have all but $6 million of his guaranteed money paid off after 2010, which would be when you would realistically want to have his replacement ready. If he really stinks this year, you could palatably cut him after ‘09, but I don’t see it happening.
So they have to make the best of it while they can, but looking ahead we need to draft a long-term replacement sometime soon. It doesn’t make sense to do it this year, given how many other holes we have (and I am personally not a big believer in this year’s crop). Also, Devaney has already stated that he is not interested in bringing in a QB to challenge Bulger this season.
My point was that this will likely become a major priority for the early rounds of next year’s draft. So it would make sense for the Rams to play it “safe” with their pick this year, and build their O-line foundation that you would eventually slot your new QB in by 2011.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
I'm
sticking with Curry. BPA.
Need Defense
Take Curry and worry about a tackle in the next couple of rounds.This draft is full of good OTs.Maybe take a big wide reciever in round 2.
Crabtree
I disagree strongly with this analysis. Crab, like any WR pick, is a risk. But he’s also a possible jackpot – potentially Jerry Rice material. Crab could be catching 1st down passes and scoring TD’s for us for a decade. You can’t get more high reward than that. Lord knows we need help at LB. I believe an aged Jack Reynolds could’ve outplayed our crew last year. Curry sounds like an ace too, although I’ve heard several “experts” question his size. An OT with the 2nd pick is absolutely not necessary. There are plenty of good O-linemen available in round two and beyond. The Rams have gotta be very careful this year. Our last two 1st round picks have yet to shine. In fact, I seriously doubt 35 yr old Leonard Little plus Carriker, Long and company can put much pressure on the opposing QBs or close up the running lanes this season. So, a big ferocious D-lineman is another critical need. Maybe if Curry IS the pick, Chris Long @ 260 lbs could be shifted from DE to LB? Then the starting LB’s would be Witherspoon, Curry and Long. That trio would be pretty formidable. If we only had the $$$ to sign a Julius Peppers type, the D-Line would also become much more of a threat. I have to believe Atogwe, Bartell and Butler will provide good coverage. With the changes already made and acquistion of either Crab or Curry, an 8-8 record is possible this year.
Chris Long weighs 284.
Getting two tickets to an execution is like getting two tickets to NASCAR, except you KNOW Jeff Gordon's gonna die.
I think he meant
get Long down to 260 then shift him over to LB
Take it with a grain of salt
The PPG impact is basically guesswork on my part. I don’t think Crabtree is going to bust apart, but I have trouble with the comparisons to Jerry Rice or Larry Fitzgerald. What has he done to earn those comparisons? And I don’t see him getting enough impact in year 1 if we neglect the core of this team.
If Devaney goes OT instead of Curry, I won’t be tearing my hair out. If they draft Crabtree I’ll be shocked, but hoping they find a way to make it work.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
PPG
I think that you have really overestimated the impact of one player. For example, if Curry really leads to 7 less PPG allowed, that means the Rams will allow 112 fewer points over the course of the season. That means he would take their PPG allowed from 465 to 353; almost a 25% decrease.
I think that the Rams will allow a lot less points this year, Curry or no Curry, but it is very hard in my opinion to say that Curry would be worth 112 points next year.
October 26; the countdown has begun.
by Marmie is the best on Mar 24, 2009 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
112 points from one player does sound like a lot
But really, I’m talking about one player improving two other players, transforming the LB group and making them much more effective. I’m hoping Jason Brown has the same effect on both Guard positions for the offensive line. MLB and C and DT are positions where you can generate this kind of domino effect.
Also, take into consideration how many of those 465 points were just stupid points allowed. 6-yard runs turned into 40-yard runs. Seam passes, screen passes, and slants that went for 30+ yards because our second level of defense was always out of position. Putting an athletic, responsible, smart young player in the middle should be able to cut down on a lot of that.
353 points allowed on the year is actually a pretty good goal for the team. It would put them back into the middle of the pack, statistically, up from 31st. IMO, Curry is the catalyst that will get it done.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
Ive Been Saying
since day one……..It has to be Crabtree or Curry. I started say Crabs, but now Im kinda leaning towards Curry. Edpjr got it right when he said “OT with the 2nd is not neccesary”, this years draft is loaded with OTs…….there isnt much of a difference between J.Smith/E.Monroe and M.Oher/W.Beatty.
I see Wikipedia, ESPN, and NFL.com has him listed at 263.
While rotoworld lists him at 284.
I’ve always gone with rotoworld since they’re site is updated daily. FWIW, he was listed by ESPN at 272 at the time of the draft.
Getting two tickets to an execution is like getting two tickets to NASCAR, except you KNOW Jeff Gordon's gonna die.
8-8?
If we take Curry and then get a WR or T (I would go Tackle, hopefully a Beatty), and pick up that veteran WR that they have been talking about to replace Holt, i think the Rams can be alot better this year, but that probably isn’t 8-8. I really want to be optimistic, but i think if you add Curry, a tackle, and depth at WR the Rams will be about 6-10 or at best 7-9. But that would be ALOT better than this year, make the Rams more respectable, and then set the Rams up to get another T and possibly a DT or QB in the next year’s draft.
Curry
Then we get the best Tackle available then we go receiver but I would be really tempted to pass on a tackle if Hey-Bey was available in the second round
the west is ours
Chris Long
Last year Chris sure looked like 260-263 lbs versus those 330 lb O-linemen he went up against. A 260 lb DE is ok in college ball. But not worth a d**n in the NFL. Conversely, Long might end up being another Mike Curtis at LB.
The good news there is that Spagnuolo was really creative with his D-line, particularly with ‘tweener’ players like Justin Tuck (listed at 274) and Kiwanuka (listed at 265). Both of those players line up against much larger opponents, but were still able to have huge, disruptive impacts.
Long had a very solid rookie season, he just didn’t rack up the gaudy sack stats under Haslett and Venturi. We have not seen the best of Chris Long yet, by far. And I wouldn’t write off Carriker yet either.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
for what it's worth.
Chris Long’s rookie season:
16 games, 40 tackles (32 solo), 4 sacks, 1 fumb. rec., 1 fumb. forced
Mario Williams’ rookie season:
16 games, 47 tackles (35 solo), 5 sacks, 1 fumb. rec., 1 fumb. forced.
Wow. Chris Long really sucks, huh?
Getting two tickets to an execution is like getting two tickets to NASCAR, except you KNOW Jeff Gordon's gonna die.
for what it's worth again
I watched all 16 Ram games last season on direct TV. Aside from the two wins, the defense, especially the D-Line, was atrocious. We gave up 29 points per game! In the NE, Atlanta, Miami, 2nd Seattle and 2nd 49er games, even a single extra sack could’ve meant a victory. I’m a realist, and not willing to say anyone on the D-Line, veteran, sophomore or rookie, was worth a crap. I hope you guys are right that Spags and company can motivate the heck out of them.
Just to point out something.
You are saying the D-Line was atrocious (and I can’t disagree much with that statement), yet Chirs Long still had almost an exact, identical rookie season as Mario Williams.
I get a "D" in common sense ... and an "F" in general helping.
Long versus Williams
Their stats are close. However, 47 tackles to 40 tackles is about a 15% differential. It seems like we both saw the same games and whether it was Little, Hall, Adyenaju, Glover, Carriker, Long or anybody else, the D-Line was, shall we say, at best, ineffective?
You're right in the macro sense, but wrong in the micro
Yes, the Rams’ D-Line really, really sucked – particularly the DTs Carricker (injured), Glover (should have retired), and Adenyaju (backup). As a unit, they were one of the weakest on the field. There’s no denying it.
That said, and I think this is TB’s point, this makes it that much easier for opposing offenses to gang up on the one true threat in Long. And Long still posted admirable rookie numbers, despite constant double-teams.
There was an “Every Play Counts” article written about Chris Long vs Jake Long, when the Dolphins played the Rams. I’ve linked to it before, but it’s a great read and I don’t mind linking to it again. You should check it out before writing him off.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
Football Outsiders made the same comparison
In the Rams section of their “”http://footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2009/four-downs-nfc-west" >Four Downs: NFC West," they compared Long to the other rookie DEs taken as top-10 picks, including Mario Williams. He may not make that leap, but his performance is probably a lot closer to the steady production of Grant Wistrom or Richard Seymour than a guy like Williams.
Not that that’s a bad thing.
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz
oops
I don’t know how I f’ed up that link so badly. Here it is: http://footballoutsiders.com/four-downs/2009/four-downs-nfc-west
"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

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