Rams looking for a return man (again)

by VanRam on Dec 16, 2008 10:22 AM CST in 2008 regular season Comment 16 comments

With Derek Stanley now joining the other half of the Rams original 53-man roster on IR, the team will be auditioning other return men.

Kenneth Darby handled kick returns in Stanley's absense last Sunday, with solid results. But it's tough to gauge those two returns fairly since Seattle, on average, allows more yards per return, 26.4, than any other team. They're among the top five in total punt return yardage too.

According to Haslett, the Rams will continue to use Darby on kick returns and turn to Dan Looker for punt returns.

Mercifully, the Rams have just two more games this season. Why not use the speedy Donnie Avery to return kicks? The offense is in the tank, and it's just not reasonable to assume they can start clicking at this point. Let's see what Avery can do returning kicks.

Obviously, Avery's future isn't as a kick returner; he offers too much value on offense to max him out. These last two games are more akin to auditions, giving players and (potential) coaches a look at the skill set among the younger players; hence Darby's increased role. That's fine, but out of curiosity at the very least, I'd like to see Avery return some kicks.

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I don't.

There’s no reason for it.

Donnie Avery is still learning how to play receiver in the NFL as a top receiver. He’s getting used to coverages (which are much more complex than college). Why give him more duties and open him up to even more violent hits, when this is one of the very few guys who could be a cornerstone player (I mistakenly left him off my list yesterday with Jackson and Long).

Look at what has happened in Chicago (albeit, the converse). The Bears had arguably the best kick/punt returner in the history of the game and decided they were so desperate at receiver they’d play him there as well. Not only did they try to convert him to receiver, but Lovie declared in training camp that Hester would be their number 1 receiver.

What they have now, is a talented guy who knows a few passing routes and still doesn’t know where to line up when the offense goes in to no-huddle or hurry-up. He has no idea what to do when there is a read to be made at the line which alters his route. He’s an average (barely) receiver with big play ability.

So what, you might ask. So they took a former corner back and made a somewhat productive returner out of him. Well, if you haven’t noticed, he has zero returns for touchdowns this year and has lost his kick-returning duties to Daniel Manning.

Is it fair to compare Avery and Hester? Well, probably not. First, I figure Avery is a thousand times smarter than Hester and it’s much different going from returner to receiver than the other way around. But, I think there is a lesson to be learned there.

Don’t take a vital part of your team and try to make him in to two vital parts of your team. Returners get blasted every play. How often have you seen Avery take a big hit while playing receiver? Heck, I can’t really remember him ever going over the middle with the big guys, let alone running up field with gunners and wedge breakers throwing themselves at him.

Sorry, I just think it’s a bad idea and an un-necessary risk. He’s too important to the team as a receiver. Maybe, if you want to start having him do it in Training Camp next year, okay. But, I wouldn’t just throw him into returning with two games left.

The boys are all here for ya...we'll back you up...we'll be there...cause, Billy, we don't stink right now. We're the best team in baseball right now...right this minute...because of you. You're the reason. We're not gonna screw that up, we're gonna be awesome for you right now. Just throw.

by Tackle Box on Dec 16, 2008 10:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Tackle Box...

your argument is too logical for you to NOT be Jim Haslett!! LOL!!

by tbell61 on Dec 16, 2008 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I told you.

I figured you out, Jim/Tackle.

Jay Zygmunt, fire yourself.

by 3k on Dec 16, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't it possible that the two games would accelerate what he could learn in training camp?

I have a couple disagreements with your post, coach. I mean, Tackle.

Donnie Avery is still learning how to play receiver in the NFL as a top receiver. He’s getting used to coverages

I would first suggest that you don’t learn how to play as a top receiver in the NFL until you’re the top receiver on your team. Torry is still drawing the top CB matchups leaving Donnie to face coverage CBs that, until this last game, have really shut him down. From weeks 12-14, Avery caught 3 balls for 32 yards. Against Miami’s pass defense, which I don’t think anyone would call “stingy”, he didn’t haul in a single reception. I find it hard to believe that someone who is getting used to NFL-level coverage musters those paltry numbers.

Returners get blasted every play. How often have you seen Avery take a big hit while playing receiver? Heck, I can’t really remember him ever going over the middle with the big guys, let alone running up field with gunners and wedge breakers throwing themselves at him.

Returners most certainly do not get blasted every play; I’m assuming this was just more Haslett hyperbole, or as I call it, Hasperbole. Think about fair catches (on punts) and touchbacks (on kickoffs) along with punts that go out of bounds or sail into the end zone. Add in returns where the returner gets pushed out of bounds. I think you’ve been watching too much Derek “Watch how fast I can run into the first tackler” Stanley. He certainly got hit on every return. I’m sad it took an injury to take him off return duty, but hopefully we’ll find a suitable replacement and he’ll come back as a better WR option. As for the fact Avery hasn’t taken any hits over the middle, I would credit that fact on two premises. 1 – He hasn’t caught enough balls (or been targeted enough) for that to have happened. 2 – Bulger (and the passing scheme as a whole) don’t throw a lot of those dangerous passes 10-20 yards over the middle that get WR’s flipped over. We opt for shorter slants where a WR (or Steven Jackson, as we saw on Sunday) comes underneath the LBs with a chance to turn and run upfield. When Holt and Avery are targeted deep, they’re always along the sidelines. Think of the Holt TD and the PI call (which was BS). Sideline routes. Also, if Avery is going to be the “top receiver” you think he will be (and I think he’s got a solid chance to be one), he’s going to have to accept physicality as part of the position he plays. One last point:

Maybe, if you want to start having him do it in Training Camp next year, okay. But, I wouldn’t just throw him into returning with two games left.

Why not? What do you have to lose? A season-ending injury? Whatever Avery might learn in taking returns in training camp, certainly some immediate game experience on return duty would accelerate his progress. What are our options, really? We saw what happens when Jay Zygmunt brings in a FA for return duty: Dante Hall’s immediate disappointment. Good return men are drafted. By the time they’ve been in for more than a couple years, that acceleration and athleticism begins to fade: the two most valuable qualities of a good return man.
Tack, you’re one of my favorite regulars around here, but I just disagree with you. I want Avery waiting for this weekend’s kickoff.

Jay Zygmunt, fire yourself.

by 3k on Dec 16, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not to mention

that the Rams never throw to the middle of the field anymore.

by VanRam on Dec 16, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Okay.

And I like you too.

First, in learning to be the top receiver, I’d say while the coverage units we’ve…er, the team…has been facing haven’t been units that rank in the top of the league, they have focused more attention to covering Avery and jamming him at the line. The book is out on Avery. He can be deadly deep, but he’s unproven doing anything else. Make him shed a jam. Make him actually get open. Make him do anything other than out run a cornerback down the sideline. And when he is going deep, make sure the safety is well aware of him (more so than Torry Holt who can’t out run anyone anymore) so there’s a safety net. While Avery may still be the number 2 receiver on paper, he’s the number 1 receiver threat when defenses look at our offense. Would you rather Torry Holt catch a pass for 10 yards and fall down or Donnie Avery catch a pass for 70 yards and take it to the house?

He’s drawn the attention of the defense, and that is something he has to learn to overcome. He was great when they zoned him or went man coverage with no safety help, but those days are over for Donnie Avery.

Okay, as far as getting blasted every play, you’re right. I was exaggerating. Sue me. I do it for effect. It comes from listening to football tv announcers, I guess. Well, that and watching Stanley run into the wedge breaker every play.

But, I’m going to take on what you say about him going over the middle. Do you know why our receivers don’t go over the middle? Because every single one of them is built to run slants and deep routes (and apparently screens, button hooks, and end arounds…..dont’ get me started on that crap). We have no guys that go over the middle. Well, strike that. Randy McMichael and Drew Bennett are two that can/do/should but Randy’s hurt and Drew’s whatever Drew is. Not having McMichael to at least provide some sort of threat in the middle of the field means that defenses can focus solely on covering Holt and Avery. There’s no chance there’s going to be a pass over the middle because DCs know that Klopp will drop it anyway.

Also, why does Avery have to accept physicality to be a top receiver? Torry Holt never did. He falls down when he catches the ball. When’s the last time you ever saw him either A) Outrun a d-back or 2) Shed a tackle? I can’t remember it happening almost in forever.

Finally, why risk an injury when it’s un-necessary? Are we actually hoping we win the last two games? Are we hoping we can drop to that valuable 6th spot in the draft? Is Donnie Avery the return man of the future? Is “No” pretty much the answer to the last 3 questions?

Could he have a season ending injury? Sure, what if it’s more than season ending? What if it takes him out of training camp, or worse? Why don’t you see more top receivers returning kicks and punts? There’s a reason. Or hell, we could put Jackson back there. He’d at least wreak some havoc. Or do we not want to get him hurt?

Basically I see it this way. If you want Avery to be your return man, fine but then you’re using a 2nd round draft pick as your returner. And if you want him to be a top receiver (1 or 2), then you want him being as prepared and ready to go when he takes the field.

Sure, field position is important, but unless you’re sticking the old Devin Hester back there and he’s getting you to the 50 or to the house every time he fields the ball, I think you’re wasting a resource just so you can get to the 25 or 30. So my advice? Stick Avery back there and draft a returner this offseason.

by Tackle Box on Dec 16, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Is 50% agreement better?

Also, why does Avery have to accept physicality to be a top receiver? Torry Holt never did. He falls down when he catches the ball. When’s the last time you ever saw him either A) Outrun a d-back or 2) Shed a tackle? I can’t remember it happening almost in forever.

Fair enough. Tackle – 1, 3k – 0.

Finally, why risk an injury when it’s un-necessary? Are we actually hoping we win the last two games? Are we hoping we can drop to that valuable 6th spot in the draft? Is Donnie Avery the return man of the future? Is "No" pretty much the answer to the last 3 questions?Could he have a season ending injury? Sure, what if it’s more than season ending? What if it takes him out of training camp, or worse? Why don’t you see more top receivers returning kicks and punts? There’s a reason. Or hell, we could put Jackson back there. He’d at least wreak some havoc. Or do we not want to get him hurt?

If you’re stopping from making a change because you’re worried that a hard hit could be a season+ injury, then you won’t ever make any changes. The threat of injury is constant and omnipresent. Hell, Joe Paterno got his leg broken (the link proves why Joe Pa is a god among men. Who breaks their leg and then stands up? Freakishly awesome). And let’s be honest: no matter how good Avery might be at returns, he’s not going to win either of our two games on his returns alone. One of the reason we were so successful on Sunday was time of possession. If we chop up our possessions into 2 minute drives (or in the case of our final drive of the game, 18 seconds…), we’re doomed. In other words, putting Donnie back there isn’t going to make such a substantial difference that win. And if, in that infinitesimally small percentage of chances, that does happen, then doesn’t that validate putting him back there in the first place? If his returns are so spectacular that we win a game that we otherwise would have lost, then shouldn’t he immediately be awarded the job next season?

It comes down to two main points we disagree on.
First, injury risk acceptance. (I would add that our own return man, Derek Stanley, returned 11 punts and 25 kicks this year. But it was his single rushing attempt on which he got injured.)
Second, the value of using these final two games as a trial period for Donnie as a return man.
If we can’t see eye-to-eye on these, so be it. I can live with a healthy Avery on day 1 next season who has channeled all of his off-season focus and training towards receiving. I worry, though, that with a healthy trio of Holt, Avery, and McMichael (not including Keenan Burton who I’m hoping will progress substantially this offseason), we’ll be much more concerned about return options than receiving options.

Jay Zygmunt, fire yourself.

by 3k on Dec 16, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

One thing at the bottom of your comment that stood out to me, though.

with a healthy trio of Holt, Avery, and McMichael

I’m losing faith at an alarming rate in regards to Torry Holt. You could probably tell from what I wrote about him. His skills are a young man’s skills and tend to evaporate quickly. He doesn’t do anything great anymore. He’s still an extremely smart receiver and, due to his propensity to avoid any and all contact, is relatively healthy. He would make a great number 3 possession receiver next year, but that’s not going to happen when he’s the most experienced receiver (by miles) and doesn’t like contact too much. Maybe Avery can take over the number 1? It really doesn’t matter who’s who on paper. Defenses will focus on who they deem number 1 anyway. With less focus (and developing help from Burton as well as a healthy McMichael) should actually help Holt out a ton.

Anyway, I feel as though we got rid of the wrong receiver last year…..but that’s a different issue all together and am not really looking to get in to it, but it just kinda stood out to me in your comment.

by Tackle Box on Dec 16, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I feel the same way

But then I look at a guy like Amani Toomer, who’s well past his prime but still runs a precise route and helps his quarterback look good, and think that there’s still a lot of value left to be mined from Holt. He just needs a #1 to be paired with, so he can benefit from more single-coverage.

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Dec 16, 2008 4:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But Toomer was the 3rd target until Plax went off the deep end

Granted, he is what he is now, but he was behind Plax and Smith in receptions and I think just recently passed Hixon. Bottom line, the Giants have a pretty good receiving corps.

We could be like that next year with Avery, Burton, McMichael, and Holt, and Holt could be a pretty good 2/3 probably.

(for the record, I have Toomer on my fantasy team and started him and he frustrated me every damn time with the amount of targets he received, so I thought he was targeted less than he actually was)

by Tackle Box on Dec 16, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who breaks their leg and then stands up?

This guy:

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Dec 16, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Or maybe he is not crazy

I’ve always suspected one has to be a little nutty to be willing to return kicks in the NFL and maybe Avery is not.

by WestCoastBuc on Dec 16, 2008 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Perspective from around the league...

Fellow second-round man (and solid rookie of the year candidate, behind only Matt Ryan) DeSean Jackson returns punts – 47 of them for 409 yards and a TD.

Eddie Royal, fellow second-round man, returns punts and kicks, including a 95-yard kick return that somehow did not score a touchdown.

Both of these guys are first-team offensive receivers. They’re also young and fast and hungry for the ball. In my mind, assuming Avery is all of these things, there’s no reason not to give him as many touches as you can.

Also, the “he’s still learning the playbook” argument is a red herring. There is no study session required for kick or punt returns. It’s all instinct.

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Dec 16, 2008 4:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Never said he was learning the playbook

Said he was learning how to play as a top receiver who receives #1 receiver attention.

Your point is valid, I just object to doing this now. Avery was hurt in training camp and didn’t get up to speed health-wise until about game 4 or 5 (well, he didn’t play until then…) while those other guys have been healthy and have been doing both rolls all season.

It’s a timing thing for me more than anything else and I just don’t see the point of sticking him back there for the last two games when he’s hasn’t done it all season. If it were a guy of lesser importance (Kenneth Darby?), I wouldn’t care.

by Tackle Box on Dec 16, 2008 4:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I get what you're saying in terms of risk/reward

I just feel that you’re really overstating the risk. Unless there are stats that show that return men get injured a lot more often than other players, I think it’s a non-issue.

If I were him, I’d be begging for the ball on returns. 3-5 looks per game just isn’t going to do it.

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Dec 16, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs